Embracing Both Worlds of Glitter and Science
===
Kara Wada, MD: Welcome back everyone, and welcome to our new listeners to the Becoming Immune Confident Podcast. I am Dr. Kara, your hostess today and and typically always, but I am so excited to welcome one of my pageants sisters today. I have none other than the reigning Dr. World.
Dr. Jasmin Chahal, she has her PhD in microbiology and immunology, specifically virology.
She's a university professor, and we met through the Doctor World Organization. So we're gonna talk a little bit about science, a little bit about glitter, and a little bit about pageantry. I'm so excited.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: A little bit of everything.
Kara Wada, MD: Yeah. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy teaching schedule to hop on and record this podcast with me.
And I would love to hear, and I've heard it, but our audience hasn't heard it a little bit about your story and how you ended up in the field. And doing what you're doing.
Introducing Dr. Jasmin Chahal
---
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: Of course. First, thank you for having me. I love talking with you. The first time we actually chatted was for my Glitter and Blank series that I do on Facebook and Instagram, and it was so much fun that I just can't get enough of you.
So of course, I'm so happy to be here. So how did I get started? So in Grade nine, how old was I? 14? I was 14 years old and I was already very interested in science. Science is all around us, and I knew that in order to really understand the world that we live in, I need to understand the science.
But it was in grade nine when we actually took a swab of the inside of our cheek and we plated, or we streaked it onto a Petri dish. So for those who don't know, Petri dishes have nutrients for bacteria to grow on. So two days later, we saw all the bacteria that was on the plate. That's everything that, that's all the bacteria that's in our mouth, if not more.
And I was mortified. I was also very intrigued and that's when I fell in love with microbiology. These microbes, these organisms that we can't see with our naked eye are everywhere, and that's when I decided that I wanna learn more about microbiology. And immunology just came with it. We're constantly fighting against invaders or microbes that are in the air that we're breathing in spores from fungi, for example, and our body is constantly fighting them off.
So I really was interested in the microbiology, but then also how does our body fight against these foreign microbes? That's how I decided to study this in university. I realized that I really like research and I want to be part of the discovery aspect, but I knew I wanted to teach as well. I wanted to teach at a higher level.
I didn't want anyone raising their hand to ask to go to the bathroom, but I knew I wanted to guide the students. So I wanted somewhere in between upper level of high school. So for us, that's CEGEP in Quebec. So grade 12 and freshman year of university is really the age I was hoping to teach at, and to teach that, you need a higher education. So I decided to start my master's, loved it. Then moved on to my PhD. Completed my PhD, and now I'm teaching first year students in microbiology and immunology. So it's really the age group that I like, and I'm actually teaching in the department and in the school that I graduated in. So I'm teaching courses that I took as an undergraduate, which is really cool. I rambled a little bit, but hopefully...
The Journey to a Ph.D
---
Kara Wada, MD: No, it's so fun. And for those who are not familiar with PhD programs, about how long does that typically take? Because it's no like walk in the park.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: It is definitely not a walk in the park. A lot of people that ask me for advice if they should do graduate school or not, I tell them it is a commitment. So if you want to do it, you have to commit. It's every day, all day. On average, it does take around five years. So in McGill, I know it's in other Canadian universities, I'm not sure about some universities in the States, but if you start your master's, you can fast track, so you can fast track to a PhD.
So if you do one year of your master's, you can do a switch seminar and then transfer to your PhD, which means you won't get a Master's. But all the work you did in your master's counts towards your PhD. It takes five and a half to around six years to complete. It depends on your project. So I did a thesis based PhD, which means you're in the lab, you're doing experiments.
Sometimes experiments don't work. Actually, most of the time experiments don't work, which is why it takes many years to complete a PhD. But that's where your skills of analysis, synthesis, critical thinking really improve. So for a thesis based PhD, it takes around five to six years to complete, if you're lucky.
Kara Wada, MD: Incredible. Yeah. I know. I followed a little bit peripherally my sisters' significant other did his PhD work in kind of relate biochemistry and immunology. And although he was down in Texas but I would hear and I knew it took just as long for him as it did for her, so she is an ER physician, but for her to do medical school and residency, it took the same amount of time for him to do his PhD and I think a year of like a postdoc, which is like a
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: Oh, nice. A postdoc as well. Must have really liked research.
Kara Wada, MD: Yeah, I think so. Or it was to help him get a job. I don't know specifically. Maybe we'll have him on sometime if we can get him to, but yeah. Yeah.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: So my husband's doing it.
Kara Wada, MD: I just know like it was a long haul.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: Yes. It's, we all have resiliency in us, but it really trains it. You have to be okay with failure. That's the other thing. If you are a straight A student and haven't faced any adversity when it comes to academics, it's gonna be a tough road.
What I tell my students a lot, so I teach a lot of lab courses as well. And I constantly have to remind them that your grades do not signify your worth. So if you don't do well in something, that doesn't mean you're stupid. That doesn't mean that you don't belong here. That doesn't mean that at all.
You are brilliant. You can always do well. This subject may have been a bit more challenging or you probably didn't study in a way that you best or studied in a way that you learn best, so a lot of students, what they do is they align a grade and the success of an experiment with their self-worth.
Hopefully I am training the students to think that if an experiment fails, it's not on them. Maybe there was a technical error somewhere, but that happens. But sometimes it could just be what it is. Maybe something happened in the experimental design. Maybe that's just what the biology is.
Sometimes our hypotheses are refuted and that's fine. Yeah, it really does train the resiliency for sure.
Kara Wada, MD: That is such an important lesson, I would say and I would suspect you have a decent number of probably pre-medical and pre-professional students in your classes. And that is a lesson that I think many of us could've, would've well been well served along the way.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: Absolutely. Kara. Absolutely.
Kara Wada, MD: Because absolutely there's so much perfectionism that is steeped in a lot of the toxicity in medicine. Yeah.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: Yeah. I'm so happy you brought that up. So a lot of my students are pre-med or hoping to get into medicine, and I can see that it is a very competitive field and because it's so competitive, they're always trying to get that extra mark.
And if their friend did better. They're not happy for their friend. They're hoping to get better than them. So there's a lot of competition that's happening to the point where it can be a bit toxic. So I don't know what to do about that because the competition's going to stay there and I have no idea. I don't know if you have any advice for these future physicians.
Kara Wada, MD: I think one thing that I have seen the pendulum start to swing, I think a little bit back to a less extreme place within medical education, medical school itself, for instance, there continued to be a lot of competition once you got in order to score for like your residency positions.
And so some of the actual scoring, like some of the exams instead of being number score, moving to like pass fail. And I think there are some initiatives and some things that are being tried out to help to help in that way, but time will tell.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: Yes, absolutely. I do wish that even those students, their goal can be, or they can strive for an A. The A is the highest grade you can get at McGill there's no A plus or a plus A is the highest. So you can strive for it, but you also have to be okay with not always getting an A. And that's what like I try to teach that to my students, but it's so hard to do unless they actually face it and go through life.
I think, you can hear it constantly, they hand wave it away and they're like yeah. " That's for someone else, that's not for me" but yeah, if they go to grad school, they'll see a lot of failure.
Kara Wada, MD: I think the other thing that I'm increasingly reassured by too is discussion of this holistic review process in the application process. The reality is it takes more time, looking for evidence on the application that students have that resilience, that they have been able to bounce back from setbacks. I think it's something that at least as a fellowship director, like we look for that and I listen for that when we interview people, we look for it on applications and absolutely, we wanna ensure that we're finding folks that are gonna be able to pass the boards 'cause we want them to be able to be allergists. That's part of it. But you don't have to necessarily have gotten an a plus on your boards to do that.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: Absolutely, and I'm glad you brought that up because a few students I keep bringing it up. I keep bringing up my students, but that's literally my whole life. I call them my kids. So I have like over 300 kids. Yeah, they're all adults, they're my children. So I have some students who have graduated with a bachelor's in science who don't have a 4.0 GPA, but got into med school.
And I have some who have a 4.0 but who didn't get into med school. So I have some students at times when they would be like, can you please increase my mark? From an A- to an A. I'm trying to get into med school and I tell them like, I can't do that. I can't just give away grades. But note that there are people who get in even though they don't have a 4.0 because they have some other skills.
And even if you have an A- in one class, that doesn't mean that you won't be a great physician and that you can't get into med school. So I'm trying to tell that to my students who are like hoping to get some grades so that they can get that A in class, but yeah, hopefully, hopefully they learn it soon and more, they spread the word so I don't have to tell.
Kara Wada, MD: Even if we can just send them. So I did not have a 4.0, I don't remember, I honestly don't remember what my GPA was. I know it was decent but it wasn't a 4.0. And I came from an incredibly small undergrad. I went to an undergrad that was smaller than my high school, and I still got into the school that I wanted to go to
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: I find like bedside manners also, I know I'm guessing like they train the medical students in that as well, but
Kara Wada, MD: Yeah, we're watching for like rude behavior. Yeah, exactly. That's gonna get you off the list real quick.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: There you go. That's it. Obviously, grades are important, doing well in school is important, but personality goes a long way as well.
The Glitter and Science Connection
---
Kara Wada, MD: And I think that's a fun and natural segue to talk a little bit maybe about pageantry. Yeah. I don't know that I know this story. How did you get into pageants?
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: I always loved pageants. Always loved them. I used to just watch them in my room on YouTube, wherever I could. I loved Aishwarya Rai and Sushmita Sen. So Aishwarya Rai was Miss World in 1994 and Sushmita Sen was Miss Universe 1994. Both Indian, I watched their Bollywood movies, was obsessed. And then the same thing happened in 2000 with Lara Dutta as Miss Universe and then Priyanka Chopra as Miss World.
Yes. And yeah, and I was just so obsessed with pageantry and the glitter and the gowns, but also how well they spoke, how elegant they were, and I always wanted to be good at public speaking. I was mediocre when it came to talking in class, but once I got comfortable, I was okay with it. But I wanted to be that, I wanted to be elegant.
I wanted to be, I wanted to answer questions that came to me just, and I only had two seconds to think about it and answer so gracefully, so I loved pageantry, but I didn't participate in any pageants until 2020. This was when I was, I don't even know how old I was 28. I was 28 years old. And the reason for that is school just took priority for me and I had a hard time juggling everything.
So I had school, I had my sports, I played a lot of sports, and I just didn't think that it was the right time for me to start pageantry, but then I got married and I was able to push some of the sports stuff aside. I was done school. Or finishing up school rather and it just really worked out.
I knew that I had the time and I was more confident in myself. I was completing my PhD, so I just felt like I am able to talk in front of people. I'm intelligent. I'm well educated. I felt confident enough to apply, so I applied to Miss Canada first. Miss Canada is a personality pageant more than anything else.
So I thought it was the perfect one to join because interview is the heaviest and its personality. So I thought, let's try this one out. And it is actually a very good starter pageant. So I joined and the competition started two days after defending my PhD.
Kara Wada, MD: Oh, gosh.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: So yes. Oh my gosh. It was crazy. A week before I was defending my PhD. I'm studying and then I'm also practicing pageant interview questions. It was insane. So for those who don't know PhD defense is essentially, you talk about your project, something that you've done for five to six years, and then you defend it.
You're defending your doctorate. So you have examiners who drill you or grill you rather with questions about the project, about the future of the project or its relevance and significance in the scientific field for two to three hours. So I did that, aced it. Then two days later I had the pageant. Yes.
And I got first runner up. So yeah. Yeah. So I was so happy. I was so proud of myself. But more than that, I had a good time. I wasn't hoping to win. I didn't, my goal wasn't to win. My goal was to just present my best self and have a good time. So I was even shocked when I got called up to top six and then be first runner up or second place.
And because I enjoyed it so much, I knew I wanted to continue, but I always wanted to do my absolute best. So I only committed to one pageant a year. I did the Miss North America. I wanted to do one that was more glittery and had a swimsuit portion to it and a an evening gown. So this pageant was more of the typical beauty pageant. I always wanted to experience it, so I represented Quebec, went to Florida. I did it. I got top 11 and this congeniality, which was so fun and very sweet for them to choose me for that award. And then that's when I decided that, okay, now is the time to join Doctor World. I was eyeing it since 2020 when Angel won.
I'm like, this will be my last pageant. I need to build myself, train myself for this pageant. And I knew I wanted to end with this one because it's women with higher degrees. I relate best with all of the queens and it really ties in well with my glitter and science platform. So I decided after coming back from Florida, I'm going to sign up and I'm going to do it.
And this will be my last pageant because I also, it's trying to start a family and it would be hard to juggle. And I won, which was a surprise to me if anyone who watched the live Facebook announcement of the awards and the placement, I was so shocked. But how exciting it was.
Kara Wada, MD: So I was watching it from Dallas, from a hotel room.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: Were you? Yeah. Oh my gosh.
Kara Wada, MD: It was funny. So essentially the pageant takes place the same day as the Dr. America pageant. Yeah. So just so that like the folks know, and at least so far because it started around the time of the pandemic and since it has been virtual so far. And so I ended up doing the interview from like break room at this venue where I did my TED talk because
which is exciting 'cause I was already like, pretty well put together for both events. I was riding the little bit of that little bit of that natural high that you get from public speaking, that kind of fight or flight, excitement, nervousness. It was pretty funny though.
But then, yeah, I went back to the hotel room and it was so exciting, like cheering for everyone and essentially they have it divided into a couple categories based on age. So there's an age group for 45 and under and 45 and over, and there are folks from all over the globe competing. Yeah. Yeah. Cool.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: I love that. I love it. And I was so surprised before. I think it started, It's pretty new. It's recent. It's a recent pageant system. And we're growing so much like you said, across the globe and what you just said about having to do your interview the same day that you did Ted , that's why I joined. It's because the queens are all doing such amazing things. So I was preparing my lecture for the following day for my class here. You were giving your TED talk and so we're all doing so many things that actually influenced so many people. And that's why I joined, that's why I wanted this to be my pageant like the, ending for me. The big shebang, or the big bang at the end,
Kara Wada, MD: So I'm sure you can imagine and maybe have heard as I have, there are naysayers that are like, "Oh, pageants, it's frivolous or it's degrading for towards women, or, some of these different things".
What would be your response to them?
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: First I wouldn't take offense because a lot of these comments come from people who haven't done pageantry.
So because I am an educator, I always believe in educating. So if someone is just making these comments, that means they're just not educated in whatever their commenting about because you can hear the ignorance or the naivete in it.
So when people say that it's degrading, I would really like to show them everything that a pageant queen has done. In any system, look at any system, you can see all the mentorship they've done, all the community service, all the hearts that they've touched, and the inspiration that they have been for so many different types of people.
You can literally choose any queen as an example, and I think they just don't know them. They just haven't taken the time to do the research and just made a quick judgment. So I always think that it's important to educate and we have so much evidence as a scientist, right? We have all the evidence to make this conclusion that it's really not degrading, it's empowering.
And pageants are now not only for cis women, anyone can join any pageant, there's really, there's options for everyone, which is really nice to see.
Kara Wada, MD: Yeah I totally agree. I think back, my first foray into pageantry was probably around age 19 or 20. I was in college and I knew I wanted to go to medical school, but I also and with that in mind, wanted to keep my cost of undergrad as low as possible, and I saw that the county fair had a pageant.
It involved an interview on stage, kind of question or speech. It was a speech and there was one piece swimsuit and evening gown, and I thought, "Goodness, I did speech team in high school". I wanted to be better at public speaking as well. I was very socially conscious into volunteerism.
My co you know, kind of, you know, one of those very excited college students. And the winner received I think a thousand dollars scholarship. It was like, I'll throw on my prom dress. And what I found out was, it was so much fun. It was like getting dressed up for prom again. I met some really lovely other and passionate, well-spoken women.
That is actually, I was I placed as one of the runners up and then got involved in the Miss America system after that, and I met future med school classmates through that system, future lawyers, PhDs, just really incredible human beings that I still keep in touch with nearly 20 years later.
Here I am at 39 and I never would've figured that I would find myself back into pageantry. But when I saw one of our sister Queens, Dr. Idaho announced her title a couple years ago, I said, time out, Dr. Erica, tell me about this. And it planted that seed.
I had just delivered my third kiddo. I did not feel very pretty or sparkly whatsoever.
But really it's been so much fun to go back and explore and get involved in this chapter of my life. Reopen the book to a chapter that I thought was done and be able to go back as a much more confident version of myself too, like knowing myself so much better than I did at 19 or 20.
Breaking stereotypes and promoting confidence
---
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: Absolutely, and I'm glad that you brought it up that you meet so many amazing queens through different pageant systems. So there are some people who join pageants to make new friends, which is. Amazing because you will make new friends, and that's a way of empowering all the girls.
Any pageant system that I've been a part of has been amazing. Girls are helping each other. So rather than it being degrading, it's empowering. We're all lifting each other up. And we're all clapping for each other. We're all rooting for each other, which is always nice to see. Actually there was, because I'm watching the show I watch Big Brother for any listener who watches Big Brother, this is for you.
It just reminded me of last year's season where you have Taylor. She was a Miss USA contestant and when she mentioned that she was a Miss USA contestant, there was one other big brother house guest who was like, "Oh, she's in pageantry. She's probably so fake. She's probably doesn't know how many states are in the country". All of that and Taylor was composed, was kind, was very strategic, very smart. Gave one of the best speeches or final speeches when she made it to the top two, and she made history by becoming the first ever African American woman to win in 24 years. So there are a lot of people who are going to have these types of opinions and judgements, but then all these pageant girls just prove them wrong and inspire people inspire already she has inspired so many people and such a great representation. Yeah, I thought of that because I still have to watch yesterday's episode today, so that's on my mind.
Kara Wada, MD: And so I get that. I guess this is a call to anyone who's wanted to explore that it is, it's a fun community, sisterhood, whatever you wanna call it. Great networking. I've learned so much. I've made some really wonderful new friendships, and I've had an excuse to get my professional hair and makeup done for a photo like that was my 39th birthday present to myself to buy a gently used gown, secondhand,
And it's another way for us to bring attention to the causes that we feel so passionate about.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: Absolutely. And I'm glad you mentioned the secondhand gown because you don't have to spend a lot of money. And rather than spending a lot of money on gowns and shoes, pageants I find is an investment in yourself. I have gotten better in my interview skills, which helps me in my career. I literally talk every day, all day in my career, and I learned how to be more clear, more concise and like you said, it brings attention to causes that are near and dear to our hearts.
And in that way we learn more about them.
So it's really an investment in ourselves, which is why not do it?
Kara Wada, MD: It's a fun, it is a very fun, I don't know, I guess call it a hobby. I don't know, but not, yeah.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: Yeah. I call it a hobby and I have to say every single pageant I've done, I had a great time. I wish it like never ended.
Kara Wada, MD: So I'm getting so excited for this fall. Yeah, you're probably really, maybe a little bittersweet.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: Yeah. Yeah. I can't believe that it's almost over. It's sad, I will stay in touch with everyone and maybe I'll continue my Glitter and Blank series with the new contestants and the new queens so I'm not going anywhere.
Where to look for Dr. Jasmin Chahal
---
Kara Wada, MD: I love it. If folks want to connect with you, they want to see your beautiful crown photos, watch your glitter and science series. Where should they look for you?
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: Yeah, so they can follow the Doctor World Facebook page. I post everything there and that's public, so feel free to just like it.
And then you can get notifications from it or you can follow me on Instagram. It's the
@jas. So the first three letters with my first name, _kc, and yeah, everything that I post there is also on the Doctor World Facebook page.
Kara Wada, MD: So either one works we'll make sure to link to both of those and maybe we'll drop the information for Dr. World on there as well. Their website too.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: Sounds good.
Kara Wada, MD: I'm sure Diana will not be upset if we do that.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: I don't think so. I don't think so.
Kara Wada, MD: Thank you so much Dr. Jasmin. This has been the best way to cap off this week and I can't wait till we talk again soon.
Jasmin Chahal, Ph.D: I love it. I can't believe that it's already over. I can talk to you for hours. This was great.
Kara Wada, MD: We'll do it again soon.
Sounds good.
Hey there, amazing listeners. Before we wrap up today's episode, I want to take a quick moment to ask for your support. If you're enjoying the content of the Becoming Immune Confident Podcast, we're bringing you week after week, there's a simple, but incredibly impactful way you can show your appreciation.
You see, leaving a review is like giving us a virtual high five and it helps our podcast to reach even more people who could benefit from the valuable insights, entertainment, and inspiration we strive to provide week after week. So if you're finding value in what you hear, here's what you can do. Open up your podcast app, whether you're on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or any other platform, and give us a glowing five star review we're dedicated to bringing you the best and your feedback helps us fine tune our content to suit your interests and needs.
But, hey, don't stop there. If you have a moment leaving a few kind words in the review section goes a long way too.
Share what you love about the podcast, your favorite episodes, or how it's made a positive impact on your life. Your words, not only brighten our day, but they also encourage others to join our incredible community.
Remember every five star review and every word of encouragement counts, it's like fuel to keep us creating, innovating and striving to make your listening experience even better. So if you're up for it, show us some love by leaving us that virtual high five in the form of a five star review today.
And a huge shout out to all of you who have already taken the time to do so.
You rock!
Thank you for being a part of our podcast journey and we can't wait to keep bringing you more amazing episodes in the future.
Until next time, keep shining and keep listening and keep on building that confidence in yourself and your immune system health.
Take care. Hey there, amazing listeners. Before we wrap up today's episode, I want to take a quick moment to ask for your support. If you're enjoying the content of the Becoming Immune Confident Podcast, we're bringing you week after week, there's a simple, but incredibly impactful way you can show your appreciation.
You see, leaving a review is like giving us a virtual high five and it helps our podcast to reach even more people who could benefit from the valuable insights, entertainment, and inspiration we strive to provide week after week. So if you're finding value in what you hear, here's what you can do. Open up your podcast app, whether you're on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or any other platform, and give us a glowing five star review we're dedicated to bringing you the best and your feedback helps us fine tune our content to suit your interests and needs.
But, hey, don't stop there. If you have a moment leaving a few kind words in the review section goes a long way too.
Share what you love about the podcast, your favorite episodes, or how it's made a positive impact on your life. Your words, not only brighten our day, but they also encourage others to join our incredible community.
Remember every five star review and every word of encouragement counts, it's like fuel to keep us creating, innovating and striving to make your listening experience even better. So if you're up for it, show us some love by leaving us that virtual high five in the form of a five star review today.
And a huge shout out to all of you who have already taken the time to do so.
You rock!
Thank you for being a part of our podcast journey and we can't wait to keep bringing you more amazing episodes in the future.
Until next time, keep shining and keep listening and keep on building that confidence in yourself and your immune system health.
Take care. Hey there, amazing listeners. Before we wrap up today's episode, I want to take a quick moment to ask for your support. If you're enjoying the content of the Becoming Immune Confident Podcast, we're bringing you week after week, there's a simple, but incredibly impactful way you can show your appreciation.
You see, leaving a review is like giving us a virtual high five and it helps our podcast to reach even more people who could benefit from the valuable insights, entertainment, and inspiration we strive to provide week after week. So if you're finding value in what you hear, here's what you can do. Open up your podcast app, whether you're on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or any other platform, and give us a glowing five star review we're dedicated to bringing you the best and your feedback helps us fine tune our content to suit your interests and needs.
But, hey, don't stop there. If you have a moment leaving a few kind words in the review section goes a long way too.
Share what you love about the podcast, your favorite episodes, or how it's made a positive impact on your life. Your words, not only brighten our day, but they also encourage others to join our incredible community.
Remember every five star review and every word of encouragement counts, it's like fuel to keep us creating, innovating and striving to make your listening experience even better. So if you're up for it, show us some love by leaving us that virtual high five in the form of a five star review today.
And a huge shout out to all of you who have already taken the time to do so.
You rock!
Thank you for being a part of our podcast journey and we can't wait to keep bringing you more amazing episodes in the future.
Until next time, keep shining and keep listening and keep on building that confidence in yourself and your immune system health.
Take care.
